Dont copy Vinnie!

[skunkfunk]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 13, 2005 05:53 AM: Message edited by: skunkfunk ]</font>

[Riddim]

I think the point has been missed.

The object is to think for oneself in the situations one encounters. That does not mean one does not learn vocabulary, nor study what came before us.

Consider this: most of us probably learned to speak from our parents. I can recall parroting my parents up until I was maybe 2 or 3. Shortly after getting social and school situations, however, I quickly learned that a lot of what I learned at home was not meant to be expressed verbatim outside. My father had some colorful ways of expressing how he felt when folks cut in front of him in traffic, for example. First time I tried that in school, I got a whole lot of unexpected attention. Got even more when I got home.

What did I learn from this? To respond to the situation at hand, in context and with good judgment. I was not my father; to speak verbatim as he did in the wrong situation was a recipe for trouble. I had to respond to the situation at hand in my own way.

The same thing applies in music. We learn from various folks, but we are not them. We have to fit the situations we find ourselves in, as the music tells us. Otherwise, we will get unexpected, and undesired attention, however brief.

The good news is that we really can?t help but make our own choices and be ourselves.

Hope this helps.

[troutbrooke]

Don't forget that even some of our favourite drummers sounded very clone-ish when we first heard them. I recall an early Simon Phillips who set up and played almost exactly like Billy Cobham. Dave Weckl was very similar to Steve Gadd. These guys took their obvious MAIN influence, and added a little something extra - and over time they have evolved to become their own entities. Can anyone think of any other obvious examples?

[PocketPlayer]

Good thots Riddim.

[davfrancis]

If this is all about the "Vinnie" tune which was a tribute to Vinnie then whats the problem... I mean Vinnie and Gregg both played some 'tonyisms' on Tune for Tony- isn't that the whole idea of these tunes?

If this thred was about the mini-virgil then fair enough.

[Dazzler]

If you want to be successful as a drummer, stop copying.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, I'm actually shocked and stunned by this post. I don't think I've ever heard such bad advice. So you think that Vinnie has no influences do you? You think that he got his drumming style, personality and technique all on his own without listening and COPYING other players do you? Oh dear!! If you take the trouble to read a number of interviews with the man then you will know that he was HEAVILY influenced by Tony Williams and indeed idolised him. He dedicates one track on his album to him (I think It's Slink) and you can not only clearly hear Tony's influence on Vinnie, but Vinnie blatantly thrown in lots of Tonyisms if you will, to the point where he actually sounds like Tony!
As you know, Vinnie studied with Garry Chaffe at Berkley and got whole systems from him, such as linear phrasing and the whole metric modulation and odd time approaches. If what you are saying is true, then Vinnie would have dreamt them up all on his own. Nonsence! Granted Vinnie took these approaches and spent hours and hours developing them and making them his own, but the point is that he got them from someone and would have had to copy certain licks or methods in order to get where he is today.

With regards to Jeff Porcaro, if you watch his video and listen to the man speak, then you will note that when explaining the groove to Rossana, he actually says "I STOLE this beat from John Bonham's groove on Fool In The Rain and Bernard Purdies half time shuffle" Note the use of the word stole! So you are right in saying that Jeff has his own style and sound, but he openly admits that he copied other drummers in order to get it.

There are countless other examples of drummers that have directly taken from their predecessors. Weckl & Gadd. Hamilton & Roach. Phillips & Cobham. Butch Miles & Buddy Rich. etc etc etc...

As has already been said, how does a drummer progress without listening to other drummers and copy them? If you can tell me, then you are a better man than me and you clearly have a secret that I and all the other HODers would love you to share!

How does any art form develop? A person takes what has gone before them, studies it and then develops it, putting their own mark and approach on it. If this wasn't the case, then we would all be playing like Baby Dodds!

I tell all my students to play along to music and if you like what a drummer is doing, then rewind the CD, copy it over and over and then be creative with the idea; Find other ways of playing it and orchestrating it around the drums and make it your own. Develop it and see where it takes you. Play it over the bar line, add a beat to it.... you get the idea.

I do hope that this post was designed to be contentious and court replies such as this, coz it's worked!! If on the other hand you firmly believe that no drummer should copy another, then I'm afraid that not only have you missed the point of the way in which an art form develops, but if you are imparting your views to students, then this is extremely dangerous and potentially damaging.

[dave991]

I know I'm relatively new here, but how exactly is Vinnie Colaiuta credited with coming up with saying 'Peace'? Am I missreading? And if I'm reading correctly, I couldn't think of a better thing to copy in this day and age.

[122]

The problem is that drummers ?copy? way too much. I don?t mean not being influenced, everybody is influenced but I?m speaking about, ?copying?. Every notice how when some drum hero does something, everybody else does the same thing?

The masters like Vinnie have such a strong identity that?s much different from others. The great Jeff Porcaro was so ?himself?. That?s a big part of what makes them loved, not only by the listener but by the musicians who work with them.

If you want to be successful as a drummer, stop copying. Ever since Vinnie started saying, ?Peace?, all of a sudden everybody and his brother is walking around saying, ?Peace?. Don?t set your set up the same way your favorite drummer does, its so ?geeky?. Its even more pathetic to talk like him or play like him.

Talk to other musicians and ask them what they like about a certain drummer. One thing that is very evident, is that people respect, ?originality? and ?style?. If your trying to play like someone to the point that your ?cloning? them, then other musicians will see that and think its stupid that your trying to be like ?so and so?.

All the great drummers who really made it big all had a different thing. Each and everyone of their personalities matched their originality. Like Buddy Rich. His personality was so integral to what he was and what he played like. Vinnies the same way. He could care less what anybody else thinks or says. He will do something and then do it different the next time, he?s always ahead of everybody else.

The key is this: train your hands to be strong, even and fast. Be able to play whatever you think. Be flexible and balanced. Don?t spend too much time playing speed strokes or patterns over and over. This is not necessary. If you have good control and speed that?s enough. Work on being more musical.

Drummers are WAY too analytical. That?s why most students and armatures sound ?boring? and ?unmusical?. They are only thinking ?chops?. Vinnie and Gadd are so much about ?warmth? and ?sound?. Yes, they have chops but its second to musicality and purpose. ?Drum chops? mustn?t get in the way of the flow of the music.

There are thousands of drummers around the world and they all want to be famous but only a few will make it. Why is this? Because being a successful drummer is about making the other musicians play their best rather then playing a ?Vinnieish? solo. You don?t want people to say, ?Oh, he?s trying to play like Vinnie?. Play like yourself and then you too might make history.

Of course God gave Vinnie extra talent and you cant copy that!

[drumaddict]

There are two categories here, copying and cloning. I think most every drummer at some points copies licks from famouns drummers that they enjoy. That is natural and healthy as a drummer whom is trying to get their chops together. Cloning on the other hand is not a healthy avenue for any musician. Going even further and trying to look like them is going way to far. Although many drummers get caught up in this I think they eventually grow out of it. I've known guys that wanted to play just like Neil Peart to the point of knowing every lick from every album. Their problem was they couldn't do anything else because all their time was spent trying to cop Neil Peart. When I was in college I tried to learn licks and grooves from all types of famous drummers popular at the time. From Gadd, Vinnie, Weckl to Rich, Bellson, and Tony. It was always fresh because I was just getting my playing together. There is nothing wrong with melding your influences to become who you are. You can't gain a unique voice in music without having big ears and self motivation.

[Dazzler]

Of course, I always find Dazzler's posts entertaining...and the more animated the better...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LMAO!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers matey! Normally they get more animated when I've had a few beers. This responce seems a bit tame by comparison as I've been off the booze since New Year. However I've got a gig tonight and there's a kit at the venue, so a few Brittany's may be in order!!

So let's see what other rubbish people throw up later on for me to respond to!! [img]wink.gif[/img]